Change is hard for anyone, but it’s especially hard for kids and teens. They aren’t usually very well equipped to handle the emotions and difficulties that come along with dramatic change in situations such as separation, death, or divorce. As a result, it’s typical to see behavioral issues increase and communication decrease when families experience these things.
What difference could it make if families committed to hope together? If we gave children the knowledge and tools they needed to be resilient and adapt to these situations in a healthy way? If we were able to actively pursue a path that leads to a life of joy, peace, and fulfillment?
Today, Sarah Moss joins me on the podcast to talk about how Cornerstone of Hope is able to help kids and families do all that and more. While their programs help teach children and parents alike, future generations are learning how to move forward with intentional hope.
About Sarah Moss:
Sarah Moss became the Chief Executive Officer of Cornerstone of Hope in July, 2019. When her marriage ended in 2010, she sought a place to regrow her hope and found the programs at Cornerstone of Hope. Discovering how hope is cultivated there, she began volunteering in children and adult programs in 2013, joining the Board of Directors in 2015. She is also an entrepreneurial business owner at Sarah’s Secretarial Services, and solo parent of two amazing special needs teenagers. Understanding the great need for hope to be an integral part of life, and intimately familiar with the mission, and vision of Cornerstone of Hope, Sarah is passionate about bringing hope and healing to as many children and parents as possible.
Mentioned In This Episode:
hope, life, cornerstone, people, families, children, find, adult, sarah, program, parents, burnout, divorce, talk, language, change, community, parachute, happen, tools
Sarah Moss, Lindsay Recknell
Lindsay Recknell 00:03
Hello and Welcome to Season 10 of the hope motivates action podcast. I’m your host, Lindsay Recknell, and workplace mental health professional speaker podcaster and an expert in hope. Bringing you these episodes with these incredible guests is my absolute favorite. I am so grateful for the privilege to share stories of transformation, and to help you move through your own transformation with our one on one work together. And with the help of the professionals who come on the show, the signs of hope and positive psychology has had such a huge impact on me and my work. So I love that I also get to share knowledge, research and stories from the evidence based science as well. It is my sincere wish that you hear something that resonates with you in these episodes, that you feel that contagious power of hope and you are motivated to take action over what you can control all towards creating a future better than today. I have such a passion for this work and I love connecting with my clients, with you, my listeners and with the guests on this show to help create transformation. This week’s guest is a personal friend of mine and someone with an incredible story of lived experience with mental health, abuse and adversity and how she channeled those experiences into a path of hope. Sarah Moss is the Chief Executive Officer at Cornerstone of Hope. When her marriage ended in 2010, she set a place to regrow her hope and found the programs at cornerstone of hope, discovering how hope is cultivated there she began volunteering in children’s and adult programs in 2013, joining the board of directors in 2015, before taking on the CEO role and 2019. Sarah is also an entrepreneurial business owner at Sarah secretarial services, and also solo parent to two amazing special needs teenagers understanding the great need for hope to be an integral part of life and intimately familiar with the mission and vision of cornerstone of hope. Sarah is passionate about bringing hope and healing to as many children and parents as possible. This is a very hopeful conversation. So let’s get into it. Hello, Sarah, welcome to the show.
Sarah Moss 01:57
Hello, Lindsay, thank you for having me.
Lindsay Recknell 02:00
I am so excited about this conversation, you have such an incredible story of hope. And I know that there will be so many parts of it, and what you’ve done with your life that will resonate with the audience. And so maybe we’ll just start right there. Could you share with us how you use hope to motivate action in your life.
Sarah Moss 02:18
Hope has become integrated in almost every portion of my life because without hope, life doesn’t keep moving forward. And I’ve had to learn that the hard way. And I’ve learned it the challenging way. But it’s become that that lifeline that I think to
Lindsay Recknell 02:34
it is definitely something that continues to motivate me as well. Could you share with us your some of the ways that you have had to find that hope in your life.
Sarah Moss 02:50
So way back when I was in my early 20s, and we’re dating myself here, so I won’t give you how many years but go that was way back in my early 20s. I was very suicidal, I had sunk into this deep dark depression, I had lived a childhood of domestic violence. We were abused as children in every way that children can be abused, basically. And it takes a toll on people. And I sat in my room one day, and I actually am a writer. So I sat down and I wrote goodbye letters. My stepdad when he was arrested for the abuse, had killed himself. And I did not want to leave behind my family in pain. So I wrote letters to say goodbye to each and every one of them. By the time I had finished writing those letters, I realized that I didn’t want to die. And so I made a choice in that room that instead of choosing death, I was choosing life. And I have spent the last 20 years pursuing a path to hope that not only helps me choose life, but help me choose a fulfilled, wholehearted life that is filled with joy and peace and friendship and community that supports me instead of breaks me down.
Lindsay Recknell 04:02
Oh, Sarah, what an incredible woman incredible courage. And really using your gifts to I don’t know, help yourself to bring joy to the world. I know that a lot of the work you do is comes from that time comes from your desire your your heart for service for other people to make the experiences of others who may be who may have a similar lived history that you do to make their lives feel also more fulfilling and more full of joy and more full of hope. Can you tell us a little bit about what you’re what you’re doing now with that hope?
Sarah Moss 04:46
Well, I’m actually the CEO of Cornerstone of Hope. I love the name of it. I’m like, oh look, that’s that’s what I’ve been building my life on. And so cornerstone of hope is a nonprofit organization and we offer peer support groups to children in particular who are going through separation and divorce, who are facing family trauma facing family drama, that they simply don’t have the skills to navigate. We all talk about how children are resilient children are get through it, they can handle the change, they’ll adapt. But we really need to start stepping in and giving them the tools to be resilient and the tools to adapt. Because when we ask children to just simply do it, they will do it. But they may do it wrong. And they may hold on to false belief systems that will damage them as they move into their adulthood. And as they move into their adult relationships. And so we give them a safe space. And we talk about the stages of grief. And we talk about how they’re feeling we talk about how it’s unfair that they are suddenly grabbed from their life as they know it and dumped into the strange new life that may actually even be better for them. But it’s massive change. And they don’t get to say no, they don’t get a voice as we give them a place to have a voice. And to navigate those emotions and walk out on the other end. Able to say, I know what to do here. I know how to express this emotion, I know how to in a safe and healthy way. Be angry, be sad, be scared, and to communicate that with the right words. So it’s it’s an amazing journey. It’s an amazing program that we’re offering. And I’m like, please just send your children if they need help.
Lindsay Recknell 06:34
And that’s local here in Calgary. Is that right?
Sarah Moss 06:37
That’s local here in Calgary, we’re also looking at expanding. So our goal right now is to market our heart Zone program into the rest of Alberta and eventually across Canada.
Lindsay Recknell 06:48
Tell me about that. What’s the Heart Zone Program? Oh, Heart Zone is the is the name of our children’s program. We also have a teens Thrive program that is specifically and it’s designed by psychologists, children’s ministry workers and facilitators from our previous programs, who sat down and said there’s holes in what we’re using, what can we do to make it better, and we sat down and wrote our own curriculum. And heart zone is and teens thrive is the result of those things. And we it’s so play based it’s so activity based the kids don’t even realize they’re talking about their emotions sometimes. Like See, we just talked about fear. And they’re like, Oh, we did. We had so much fun doing it. One of my favorite stories to tell right now is this little girl up nine years old who came in our fall of 21 sessions. And her dad shared with me that she had asked her like, Dad, do we have Hearthstone tonight? And he’s like, Yeah, we do. And she’s like, Oh, good. I like going there. I wish we didn’t talk about our emotions so much, but then it wouldn’t be as good.
Sarah Moss 07:55
Right? Like, and he shared with me after Christmas, he said, you know, we had a really rough Christmas, it was their first Christmas separated. So then we had a really rough Christmas. But the girls used to have like these meltdowns and temper tantrums and behavioral issues that but they were able to communicate with me and tell me how they were feeling and tell me what they wanted an advocate for themselves. Because of the skills they’ve learned at Hearthstone. And it just made everything so much easier. It wasn’t better, it just was easier to navigate because they had the tools. Say, Dad, this is how we’re feeling that this is what we want. And that’s just an amazing, like, it brings me to tears because I’m just like, wow, that’s our goal. That’s what we want to do. We want to give families hope and an easier path through the challenging times.
Lindsay Recknell 08:44
The language of emotion and the language of mental health is something that is so like central to the work that I’m doing these days. And it been like to hear you talk about the importance and the impact that giving these kids and teens and probably their parents as well, I suspect the language that they can use to feel confident to express themselves. Do you find that many of the behavior challenges or many of the Yeah, communication challenges come because people won’t speak out loud simply because they don’t know what words to use?
Sarah Moss 09:23
Oh, absolutely. Behavior is a language all of them in and of itself. When children are misbehaving, it’s very rarely because they want to be bad. It’s very rarely because they want to make their parents lives difficult. You might have the odd child where they’re like, oh, yeah, I’m just gonna be bad because mom isn’t bored enough is too bored today. But the reality is that when children are misbehaving, they’re communicating something to us. They’re communicating that something is wrong. Something has shifted in their brains something is weighing on their hearts. And when we look Git behavior as a language, we can see past it, and we can see the pain that’s behind it, we can start looking for the reasons. And that just changes how we approach everything.
Lindsay Recknell 10:16
How do we figure out what’s behind it?
Sarah Moss 10:24
By providing the language, it comes back to the emotional intelligence, and teaching that by opening the lines of communication and sitting down and saying, Okay, I see that you just punched your brother. What were you thinking? And how are you feeling instead of that immediate time out discipline, take away all the toys, reaction, you know, we have knee jerk reactions, and how we react to the behavior will absolutely affect how they respond, and how they communicate with us. So that was spoken as parent obviously. But when we sit down, and I think the biggest change is, when children are acting out, and we can’t figure out why they’re acting out, then we have to find them the resources and the tools. And so that’s where Cornerstone hope comes back in is that we provide those resources and tools. And, you know, we’re dealing with families who are going through separation, divorce, separation, divorce, they happen, we’re not going to stop divorce, we’re not going to stop the breakup of families. But we absolutely must support families through that. A lot of cultures, subcultures in our society want to ignore that it’s happening, they want to say no, no, it’s, it’s wrong, it’s bad, my family should stay together, let’s, let’s not support them, because if we don’t support them, they’ll stay together. And that’s exactly the opposite of what I’m talking about. Because when we support them, they might be able to find that way to stay together better, or, even more strongly is, when we give children the tools, the mental health tools, the language of emotion, we set them up to succeed in their future relationships. So maybe the next generation does a better job of maintaining relationship does a better job of communicating within relationship. And then we can start seeing those divorce rates drop because people have been empowered with hope to stay together because they know how. And that’s a big thing that I see in our programs. Doing is equipping the next generation, it’s so much easier to heal a child or to help a child work through the hurts than it is to heal an adult who’s had hurt compounded on hurt compounded on hurt. You know, we started by telling it took me 20 years to find my path to two healing into two hope. But we can do it with kids and six months.
Lindsay Recknell 13:08
And help them to help their parents along the way, I suspect.
Sarah Moss 13:11
Absolutely. And we don’t just help the kids because we also believe you can’t just help kids, if you don’t help the parents at the same time, you’re only doing half a job. So we also run adult programs alongside our kids program, they run at the same time. So parents don’t need to have to find childcare. And it just, you know, enables everything to run a bit smoother and gives everybody that opportunity to be in one place at one time. And it’s a commitment, like our families come in for 13 weeks. One night a week. But it’s a commitment and families are committing to hope they’re committing to build those foundations.
Lindsay Recknell 13:48
Committing to hope, I mean, I love the sound of that.
Sarah Moss 13:55
You can commit to hope and that’s all it takes. Really, that’s the start of the journey. When we want hope we have to commit to pursuing a path that finds us there. Without that commitment, we’re just, you know, take going where the wind blows, and it’ll blow us into dark valleys and it’ll blow us onto mountain tops. And you’ve got to cling to the mountain tops while you’re in the valley. You’ve got to hold on to the positives. You’ve got to hold on to the love you’ve got to hold on to hope you know if a parachute jumps out of a plane, the parachute says hope. But if he cuts the strings, he’s got no hope. And so we have that choice. Do we cut the strings or do we hold on?
Lindsay Recknell 14:38
What’s amazing is you are my second podcast interview in two days that is used a parachute as an analogy for hope. Really. Oh wow. Yeah, super fascinating. And the strings as the various kind of tools or actions to take to steer That parachute and save it from freefall. Which I find that to be really, really interesting.
Sarah Moss 15:09
There’s a thread there, right?
Lindsay Recknell 15:12
No kidding. No kidding. And speaking of the action, you I mean, you say, commit to hope. And then your families spend 13 minutes to 30 minutes, 13 weeks taking action to come to your center to participate, actively participate in your programs. That’s a big deal, too.
Sarah Moss 15:34
It’s a big deal. And it’s not a small ask, you know, there’s a lot of things in our lives that that can take precedence or could take priority, or just distract us from our journey. And it’s really important to make that focus and say, No, this is what I’m doing. Because this is important not to just today, but to every day, I’m going to walk in the future. And I think that’s why we’re called cornerstone. The cornerstone is the foundation of relationships, it’s the foundation of hope. And the interesting thing about our programs is we don’t jump in like our first week, we’re not there talking about hope. Our first week, we’re talking about why am I here? What brought me into this room, what circumstances in my life are the reason for me being here. And then we start talking about anger. And we start talking about depression, and we start talking about how change affects everybody. And what do we do with change? I mean, the only constant in life is change. And so kids don’t realize that they’re like, it’s unfair. It’s not right, I want things to stay the way they were. And I’m like, Yeah, but nothing stays the way they were, I mean, you know, five, two years ago, you were a foot shorter, and not as developed as you are, like, change has to happen. If it doesn’t happen, like, do you want to stay the stage for the rest of your life? And they’re like, No, I want to grow up and become whatever, right? And so being able to couch it in those terms helps them to go, oh, okay, so change happens, what do I do with the change? And that’s where we stopped talking about fear of change. And the various ways various fear can happen, and we talk about anger and how we can healthfully and safely express that. Because anger is just another emotion, there’s nothing wrong with it. And kids are like, Oh, that’s the bad emotion. I’m like, Nope, it’s not. It’s a healthy emotion, it tells us something is wrong. Let’s talk about it. We teach them safe, appropriate ways. You know, is it is it safe and appropriate to punch your brother? No, but how about a pillow, you know, and it’s all age appropriate. You know, we deal with kids from four to six, seven to 910, to 12. And then, of course, the teenagers up. And so we everything is based at their developmental age and their developmental stages. And then at the end, we start talking about forgiveness, and how forgiveness leads into hope and how hopefully, then to looking back to the future. And, and thinking, You know what, just because this crappy thing happened, I can still have a good life, I can still have a good future, I can still have good relationships, it just looks a little different now.
Lindsay Recknell 18:11
It gives me shivers to hear you speak about it. So about change, change being the only constant. So often we think about the change as the interruption. But I think it’s really the transition. That’s the interruption. Because like you say change is going to happen. Right, we turn left, we are going to turn right, like we can do that. That part. That’s not hard. I think the hard part is the transition afterwards and adjusting to whatever new path that we’re on. Does that anything that you talk about in your program?
Sarah Moss 18:48
I think I disagree with you, actually.
Lindsay Recknell 18:50
Oh, I like it. Tell me more? Yes.
Sarah Moss 18:53
I think it’s the reaction to change. That is the interruption. Because when change happens, you know, if our if our reaction is this is unfair, this is awful. We dump ourselves into the pit. But or into the valley or whatever you want to call that. But if you go, Oh, this is happening? How do I transition then that becomes part of our journey. So how we can face the change. And I think by accepting the change is a constant, then our reaction to change is like Oh, another change? Let me take a moment to pause and breathe. And how we react to it can then become part of the journey or it can become the interruption to our life.
Lindsay Recknell 19:41
I like that I like that I can I can get behind that. And I’ve never I’ve never thought of change as an interruption before either. That sort of sparked in my mind from what you had to say there. But I like what you what you say Is that our response to the change is what we get to work through and find the healthy ways to respond to that change, that’s inevitably going to happen. Like, and
Sarah Moss 20:13
all of that is dependent on how we filter our emotional language and intelligence. Because otherwise, we don’t recognize it, you know, a lot of times we just walk through life and change, it’s flung at us and we get, you know, you step off to the side of it, because you just got punched in the stomach, but you keep walking, and you don’t realize you left your path. And, and being aware that, okay, this is the change I’m dealing with today. And I mean, COVID, all of us got smacked in the head, and we all got pushed off our track, and some people got pushed into a slightly better track. Some people said, Oh, this is the new path, what can I do to embrace it and improve myself in this temporary shift, and other people got lost going, This is it, this is permanent, this is the rest of my life, instead of recognizing that this was a temporary blip, and life will change, but it’s going to continue. And so, you know, the entire world has gotten a taste of a dramatic change and a dramatic shift. And, and we’ve observed all the ways that people can react to that. And it’s just one of those things like, again, it comes back to change as a constant. And whether it’s in our personal life, or in our global life, or in our local life, or in our family life, there’s so many ways that change can impact us. It’s so important. And I think it’s even more importantly, glaringly obvious that we have to give children the tools to navigate those changes. And they’re watching the adults in their lives. How is how is this adult reacting to change? And you see that and how children have adapted to and transitioned through and reacted to the core COVID thing. It’s been about what their adults are doing. But what if we sat down and said, Here’s some tools, whether or not the adults in your life are using these tools, you can use these tools, all of a sudden, we have a better place?
Lindsay Recknell 22:24
Do you require that the adults, the caregivers of these kids also participate in the program? Or is that an optional thing while their kids are in the program,
Sarah Moss 22:39
we highly recommend that the parents stay on site. And if they’re going to stay on site, they might as well join a program. It’s our preference that they join the programs as well. And we give them many options. So for the adults, we have divorce care, single and parenting, we have grief share for people who have lost someone to death. We have boundaries, we have transformations, and we have smart step families, which I was reminded the other day is a terrible name. We should be calling it blended families. But the actual name of the program is smart step family so I can’t change it. And that’s just an example of like, how language has changed around these things.
Lindsay Recknell 23:26
And do you find that many parents decline programming?
Sarah Moss 23:32
I’ve had one parent over the years decline.
Lindsay Recknell 23:35
That’s that is encouraging. That’s very hopeful.
Sarah Moss 23:39
Yeah, it’s, it’s amazing because if parents are walking in the room with their children, very often they are struggling with the transition. And to be given a community of like minded people who are going through the same or similar circumstances as you are. You know, in families go through separation divorce, they end up losing a lot of community. It’s not just the marriage, they lose, they lose their hopes, they lose their dreams, they lose their communities. And when they walk into community, cornerstone of hope. They find those things again, we are a place where they don’t have to hide how they’re feeling about the separation divorce, they don’t have to worry about the news getting back to their ex, they don’t have to worry about what they’re being saying. They don’t need to worry about what is being said in the room, coming back to hurt them in some fashion. One of the things we actually do is from age four, all the way up to 99. That we have very many 99 year olds. Everybody signs a confidentiality agreement. Nothing that is said in those rooms is to leave those rooms. Ironically, the children grasp that concept even better than the adults do. I’m not surprised but it’s a safe place and they can talk about everything they need to talk about, you know, if they’re in their adult class, and they need to talk bad about their ex, they can do that because their know their child is engaged somewhere else and isn’t about to walk in the room to hear them talking. You know, they can talk about how hurt and how angry they are, they can talk about how frustrated they are with their children’s behaviors, they can talk about how they don’t know how to parent single handedly how they are really struggling with these transitions. And nobody in that room goes, Oh, what are you talking about? Can you explain that more, because we all know what they’re talking about. You know, it’s, it’s to sit in a space where you don’t have to explain yourself, you don’t have to justify yourself, you can just work on healing, without having to explain why you need the healing. It lets it’s a powerful room.
Lindsay Recknell 25:52
It feels like a very powerful room and a place of belonging.
Sarah Moss 25:59
When we belong, we can hold on to hope better. When we feel alone, you know, if you go back to that parachute analogy, one of the strings has to be community. And when you lose community, you lose a little bit of control over your hope. And that’s, I think that’s why back, you know, 20 years ago, I refound my community simply by writing letters to say goodbye, realized how many people I loved and how many people loved me, and it reattached that community line. And it never let go, I could never have that community line break, because I had just reminded myself of how strong it was in my darkest moment, and so, finding community really, really helps us hold on to hope. Especially if you have the right community.
Lindsay Recknell 26:48
Yeah, healthy community.
Sarah Moss 26:51
Healthy Community is a place where you feel safe. And that changes everything. And so yeah, when we separate when we divorce, we lose community, we lose our hopes and dreams for our marriage. And, you know, you get married, you don’t plan to divorce, like, name one person on their wedding day. It’s like, yeah, we’ll last five years, maybe 10. That’s not the goal. That’s not the point. That’s not the hope that we have. And so divorce is like a death like you are letting go of something intangible but very, very tangible in your heart. And, and finding a place of people who can hold you up and say, This isn’t the end. This is a new beginning, this is a new chance this is this is something you have to go through for some reason. But you’re going to make it to the other side. It’s really important.
Lindsay Recknell 27:44
So for some of the families that are listening, how do they get involved and get engaged on a program with the cornerstone of hope.
Sarah Moss 27:53
Our website is cornerstone of hope.ca. Very simple, very easy to find us. We’re in Canada, please don’t go to Kentucky or Ohio. They don’t do what we do. You can email me I’m Sarah at cornerstone of hope or info at cornerstone of hope or help at cornerstone of hope. So many ways. We’re on Facebook cornerstone of Hope Canada. 403-289-8555 I’m somewhat easy to find I answer all the emails, like all the emails come to me. So it doesn’t matter if what you email, you’re going to find me at the other end of it. Something
Lindsay Recknell 28:37
amazing. And we will absolutely link to all of those places in the show notes of this episode to make it even easier for people to get a hold of you. Sarah, we’re coming to the end of our time together. I can’t even believe it. This half an hour has gone by so so fast. And I asked the same question at the end of all my guests and that is Sarah, what gives you hope?
Sarah Moss 28:59
Oh, there are so many things that give me hope. Now we look around at our world and we see a lot of darkness and we see a lot of difficult stuff. But if you look past those things, you can see the helpers. In my life, I find people I see people who are healing from emotional trauma. When they take the courage to step forth and make themselves better. That gives me hope. The only person we can change is ourselves. And when we commit to that process, we make the world a better place. So I gain help from those who are determined to do better and be better who give themselves to help others do the same. I have hope from you know, my best friend who has the courage to walk away from abuse, and then to stand in that place and empower others to do the same. I find hope in the young girl who after experiencing horrific abuse, chose to heal from it instead of Instead of wallow in it, or commit suicide or drown in it, she chose to swim out of the despair. You know, I find hope in the people who are doing those things, the people who walk into our cornerstone of Hope rooms, because they are the ones who are bringing hope back into the world.
Lindsay Recknell 30:22
So, so powerful, you are doing amazing work, you have taken your negative lived experiences and really use them for good you are, you just have so much courage, and you give me so much inspiration, and have such an incredible heart for service. Thank you so, so much for sharing your journey with us with your work. And I know that the people listening will hear something that they need in your words, and will feel that same kind of motivation to take action towards hope in their life. So thank you again, so much for joining us.
Sarah Moss 30:59
Thank you. It was a pleasure was a real pleasure. We’ll talk to you again real soon.
Lindsay Recknell 31:06
Yet another incredible story. I mean, I literally say that after every episode, but I wouldn’t publish episodes I didn’t think were incredible. Now what I I mentioned in the introduction, that it’s my sincere privilege to share space with these guests to bring their stories and their expertise to the podcast airwaves. And honestly, I learned so much from their wisdom at the same time. That’s the thing about this work. It’s in the storytelling, the language we use to express our innermost narratives. That’s what has the most power of transformation. Sometimes when we don’t know the words to use, we just won’t say anything at all. And that can lead to negative rumination and the stressors in our lives can lead to burnout. The topic of burnout stress and why the differences between the two matter is something we talk a lot about in my most popular training workshop titled from burnout to hope. In this 60 minute workshop, you’ll learn to apply evidence based strategies and tactics to reverse your feelings of overwhelm and languishing and activate the hope circuit in your brain for a future better than today. It’s transformational, personal, and dare I say, guaranteed to increase your hope levels. You’ve heard me say it 100 times. But I believe that fear is louder in the dark. And talking about loud about the fears, aspirations, and the anxiety inducing situations we find ourselves in is an amazing way to move towards the transformation of a future better than today. If you’d like to learn more about language, and how you can leverage the science of hope in your life, I’d love to share from burnout to hope training workshop with you. You can find more information about it on my website at expertinhope.com/burnouttohope. I truly believe that the future will be better than today by taking action over the things we can control and conversations like this really reinforced that hope. Looking forward to keeping the conversation going. So reach out anytime. As always. I’m here when you need me.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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